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Are the glory days behind us? 
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Post Are the glory days behind us?
Been thinking this for a while. The 100+ members on. Late night raids, level grinding, RVR domination. Are the glory days of BBB over? Maybe i just haven't been in Aion or Rift, but the activity on the forums is nothing compared to peak Daoc. Perhaps it is because everyone is popping kids out left and right, but this begs the question. If a new hit game comes out, will core BBB be too busy with life to play? I know with all the travelling i do for work and shitty hotel connections i more than likely will. Just a thought.

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Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:21 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
It's going to be very hard for us to get back to the DAOC prime days, that's a fact. What we had then was, only word I can think of is, unbelievable. There have been many games, and you see many guilds with huge numbers in each game. I don't think i've seen a guild that had the cohesion we did then. Even with all the members we had, I don't think there was a single person that didn't feel like part of a family.

That said, there's always a select group of BBB who look at different games and want to give it a go. Did fairly well with WAR, and i'm sure would have done better if WAR hadn't faded out so fast. WoW, huge game, but just didn't seem to draw the BBB crew back together. I'm sure there were alot of BBB playing and most likely still playing, but different servers, different factions. Rift had people thinking of a great try, but it didn't seem to draw as many. Star Wars seems to be the next big thing on the horizon, and it seems to have a decent following so far.. but we'll see how it goes.

Most of the old BBB crew is now family oriented, job oriented or just out of the gaming mode. I personally haven't MMO'd since I quit WoW almost 2 years ago. Yes, I did make a small WoW comeback for like a week, but found myself disgusted with it and quit again. I do see myself as trying Star Wars for sure (I've always been a huge SW fan, so I almost have to). I'd love to see a BBB the size and texture of our old guild, but we'll see.

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Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:03 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
A good question & well answered Sinj!
Since L2 (only about a dozen bbbers played it) i've tried several other games but none come close to daoc. In WoW - was good until the expansions ;p - bbb was well represented in both factions. I didnt do Warhammer though. I might look at SW idk. It'll take a good game to gather BbB in, but i do hope it will happen!

Last week i started playing Age of Conan - Unchained. So far i like it; good ui, classes & storyline(s).
Waiting for Tera to launch.


Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:21 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
It is what it is: at some point, we just stopped growing and started shrinking. I can probably rattle off a hundred names of people who used to roll with us in DAoC but haven't really played anything with us since.

The only game in which we really pursued expansion was DAoC--sure, we added a few people here and there in other games--but we really stopped growing when DAoC wound down. It's nice to think of certain people who have stuck around as the "core" of BBB; but the unfortunate truth of that perspective is that it turned that core into an almost inaccessible clique to any newcomers.

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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
I somewhat blame myself for this.. I, like some others, have become lazy in my old age of online gaming
and am not as quick to openly make friends or be as outgoing as I once was. I trust my friends
and back up my friends to the limit of my ability and I guess I've made it much harder to become
one of those types of people these days.

I need to be more outgoing and slightly more trusting in any upcoming games. I need to put myself
out there more. As do others in this little gang of ours ;)

Carefree and Charismatic Narco Incoming to the next big game, that's a promise!

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Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:33 am
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
So is it time for the new Narco to start SW banner designs for the page? :P

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Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:10 am
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
We're all as guilty as you are, Narco. We've basically grown complacent--it's not a matter of not wanting to make friends. It's that we get online, there are 8 people on in BbB. Let's say, for sake of argument, 5 of them are Narco, Nalty, Airmoros, Iroerd, and Blackbird. The other 3 are newcomers who joined in the last week. Who are you more likely to group with? The guys you've known for 10 years or the guys you met last week and who have been fairly quiet in the guild so far because they feel like they're outsiders among a group of long-standing good friends.

I hate to say it, but I don't think there's a remedy for this problem within the confines of BbB. I think the best hope may to be to get together as a group and join another, larger guild such that while we continue to be a clique, we're just one part of the larger whole.

There's not enough of us left to be a viable guild on our own--and there's not enough interest in building a new guild to really pursue it.

Just my $0.02.

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Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:26 am
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
we need a tactic similar to what my fraternity did for rush. Everyone get your hot slutty friends to join the guild for a bit, you'll be surprised how many people will want to join....

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Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:19 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
I don't think it is impossible to get back to a normal healthy 50-70 ish regular member guild in a big enough game like Star Wars or GW2. The main problem is one no one can fight which is simply gamers getting older, having family and work that takes them away from online gaming. The second main problem we can deal with is what Nalty said. We are too insular. This applies to all of us, myself included.

We need to make a concerted effort to try and bring in new peeps and hope our zany blend of good gamers, laid back attitude and crass humor sticks with them. Nothing will ever (IMO) match what Daoc meant not just to BBB but all of the old school Daoc players but that doesn't mean we can't find a great time and add more people in another game. Frankly I feel like we were building a huge momentum in WAR before that game's suckiness factor overcame people's ability to stick with it and hope for the best. Even then the core group in WAR stuck around for a hell of alot longer than most other guilds that played WAR.

Star Wars could be the next big thing, so can Guild Wars 2. I think if we really tried to meet people and not settling into familiar cliques in Vent or in grouping in pve/pvp we can absolutely grow again. There's a reason so many people have had a BBB guild tag over the years in various games. The core values of what we offer are sound. We just need to shine our light a little brighter so more can see it.

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Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:43 am
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
We did at least build a bit in WAR; but a lot of that was more organic type growth than you might think. I don't remember there being any major recruiting efforts in WAR.

People bring this up often (I've brought it up myself in the past). I think the question everyone has to stop and ask themselves is: are we REALLY willing to put in the real, legitimate WORK that it will take to get new people into the guild. Take Rift as an example: Varadin in particular put a lot of effort into getting new names into the guild. What he hoped is that we'd all take it from there and really bring people into the fold. We all know perfectly well that it didn't happen. We all talked like we wanted to do it, but when we were in game, we were too busy with our long-time friends or grinding to 50 as quickly as possible to worry about new members.

If you want my opinion, the biggest roadblock, aside from our own insularity, is the design of games in the post-WoW world. There are two main factors:

Speed and soloability of attaining max-level. I had a new baby at home with restricted game time and I still was able to basically solo my way to level 50 in less than a month in Rift. I never had to meet people to group with. In fact, for leveling, running in a group would have actually slowed the process down for me! This phenomenon began in WoW and it's since been taken to extremes (those of us who played WoW in the early days remember that there would be long stretches where you'd better be running dungeons with people or you would absolutely run out of quests--this was a FAR better system than what we see today). Not only am I not encouraged to meet people and group with them; I'm actually actively discouraged from doing so! Take possibly 30 minutes to find a dungeon group or just keep rapid questing as fast as I can move?

Truthfully, I'm not sure I'm really going to jump on-board for another MMO until these problems can be (at least somewhat) addressed. Frankly, I can go back and play any single-player RPG and have a better single-player experience than any MMO offers. The only "massively multiplayer" experience left in these games is end-game raiding. It's sad because I've made some great friends through playing games. I had the pleasure to meet up with Truwind in Las Vegas a few weeks ago. How many people who met in video games can say that 10 years later, they're still looking to hang out when they're in the same city?

The only game I've played recently that I've both had fun with, and solves these problems was Aion. But that game swung too far in the opposite direction. Running the same dungeon 50+ times and not getting a single drop? Taking 9+ hours to run another dungeon and getting ONE drop (one total, not one for each group member). It's sad because lvl 1-35, I really liked Aion. After that, it turns into the typical NCSoft grind-fest. Aside from that, I haven't seen a single game that breaks the mold set by WoW several years ago. And no, I'm not talking about the usual bitching that comes from modern-day "WoW haters" (all of whom were subscribers for years) about games being WoW clones. WoW broke the mold that was set by EQ. In many ways, it was "yet another EQ clone"--but it broke that mold in many ways (the most important, and lasting break came in the form of the highly developed quest system).

Sadly, most games that claim to want to "break the mold" today aren't breaking jack shit. Public quests? Rifts? Action-style combat? These are gimmicks--not major departures in game design. I'm certainly not bashing on the public quest concept. It worked well in WAR; it worked even better in Rift. What I'm saying is that they didn't entirely change the way the game is played.

The flip side of all of this is: do we really want to go back? The truth is, I don't know. I know I don't want to go back to the EQ or DAoC days when I'd often lament, "No point in logging in, I only have an hour and I'll barely find a group and get to the designated pulling spot before that time is up." But it's gone so far the other way now that what we have are single player games that let you play with your friends when you reach max level. Sadly, even then, you don't play with your friends. You find 20+ random people and bash your head against that proverbial wall known as "end-game raiding."

Was the original, 2004, "vanilla" WoW the epitome of MMORPG game design? I think there's a pretty compelling argument that it may have been. While it didn't do everything right, it was a really good attempt at ending the "there's nothing to do" problem of earlier games without turning the game into "a bunch of people playing a single player game in the same world."

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Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:22 am
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
I think our biggest recruiting tool is not necessarily the effort to meet people, it's the effort to dominate everyone in our path. Granted i became part of BBB while grouping with lodi and co on mid galahad, but our biggest recruiting tool is domination. People like winners. When they see our group tactics and success in rvr, they see us taking towers (daoc) and the endless kill spam that ensues, they think, "i want to be part of that". They see us running our colors, guild cloaks, always travelling in packs. If i were to see random BBB running around in a game i wouldn't think much of it. But if i constantly saw packs of BBB, that's something that would stick in my mind.

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Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:07 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Agreed (all around.) BbB's success in DAoC was due to DAoC's design. I never actively recruited in that game; however, I was able to recruit easily. Why? Because the game did it for me. The more foes I killed in RvR, whether it was in a group with other guildies or solo, the more kill-spam I generated on all players' screens. The more kill-spam I generated, the more they knew my name and the name of everyone else getting kills with me. That's when I got /tells with interest in our guild and I pointed people to the designated recruiters with my name as a reference.

All of Hibernia was on the same team with the same objective(s) in that game...at least in the RvR portion of it. It was a war. People wanted to be on the winning team. People wanted to be in the winning guild on that team. It also created a community. You knew people that you had not even talked to -- just because you'd seen their name scroll across your screen so many times. You knew the names of your Hibernian teammates. You knew the names of your enemies.

Alas, there is no sense of being on a team in any of the MMOs I've played since DAoC. WAR tried, but the mechanics weren't the same. They did include kill-spam, but not by default...you had to go in and turn it on. So, the game didn't bring in any new faces by design like DAoC did. WAR's RvR objectives didn't hold the same importance as DAoC's, nor were there three sides for balance. It was just tug-of-war with no meaning.

Instead of following in the footsteps of a great concept brought to us with DAoC, MMOs veered in new and different directions. I believe that even with a release of DAoC II, the landscape of MMOs and what gamers expect out of them has changed. There is probably no going back to what we had...but that doesn't mean what we do have is bad!

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Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:17 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
honestly i hate the whole raiding direction. No i do not want to kill AI mobs for 3 hours straight just to get loot. dragon raids were fun. Gala raids were fun. These places were huge and required a lot of people, sort of had a shock and awe feeling being on those. but running blood/bile endless times in WAR. All the raiding i heard of in WoW. Honestly just Spellcraft me a suit and get me into rvr asap. I don't want to rely on having tiered equipment so mobs don't one shot me just to get the next tier. I want skill and teamwork like in daoc to beat hard bosses. and if all else i want to be able to zerg the shit out of it, brute force baby.

EDIT: i think raiding is what is leading less BBB to play. in daoc after joining BBB on mid gala everyone left once we hit 50. So i wanted to follow to hib (had never played hib). Didnt want to level up so i bought an account on ebay for 45 bucks. naked lvl 50 eld, and BBB set me up with some gear, and i was out in battle within a couple days. Raiding takes too much time and deters/breaks away casual gamers.

In daoc we could run as a guild. WAR we sort of could do this, but there really wasn't much resistance and order would just go somewhere else. Yeah if we push the city we don't have tiered gear and just get raped. In daoc we could push and take away places in rvr where people xped. we could take away port areas. we could push relics which gave everyone bonuses. There was a reason for them to come stop us, this made it fun. We need this to pull more people in. Hopefully SW will give us this.

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Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:28 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Today i just got to 40 & bought a mount when a lvl 80 priest (a total stranger) stopped in town to say hi to me & a friend, & took us out to kill some bosses before he logged for the night. I got 3 rare drops in less than an hour, ones ill be able to use in a few more levels. This is Age of Conan, where grouping isnt essential but its rewarding & encouraged. Most of the story questlines finish with 3 that require a group. It's the most interesting mmo ive played in a long long time.

=)


Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:56 am
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
I really wish there were a DAOC 2 on he horizon. RvR was king for sure. I can even remember us doing Gala a couple times, hear word of heavy rvr action and possible relic attacks, and we'd drop Gala were it stood.. even suiciding on little mobs to get out of there so we didn't miss out on the fighting.

Of course then I moved back to WV and got stuck with dialup for a bit..But that's another story...

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Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:50 am
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
I agree with Frosty so much. You guys know my feeling on raiding and Saowynn is the exact same way: we'd rather chop our arms off than grind the same damn content over and over and over just to get +4 more STR or something. :rolleyes:

The only endgame content that holds our interest is rvr. Fighting as a team versus another team makes you actually care about what happens and it is by far the best community builder of any MMO design I've seen. I knew almost all of you guys here as a MID on the other side because I saw you all so much in RVR and interacted with a few of you here on this board or the VN boards. That is why I'm still here and love playing with you guys. I felt like we were already friends before we even played together.

I'm hoping Star Wars or GW2 can replicate this. I know the Prime game is a three sided RVR sci fi MMO that's in beta now if you guys aren't aware of it. There's at least some hope on the horizon.

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Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:04 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Star Wars won't.

GW2 might.

There seem to be a decent number of people clamoring for a PvP type game--but the question is: what does a PvP-based game in today's MMORPG landscape look like? We know what it looked like 10 years ago when DAoC was released--but what does that game look like today? And moreover, can that game really capture a big enough audience to make AAA-level investment in an MMO. The trouble is that a PVP-based game actually competes with two separate genres: action games (shooters, primarily) and other MMORPGs. One of the biggest arguments that people have had with PVP is that it's not "skill based"--it's on gear, not player skill. These people tend to gravitate back towards games that are purely oriented towards player combat. People on the other end of the spectrum, the true MMO players, complain that there's "nothing to do except PVP" at max level and they gravitate back towards games with other stuff to do.

In short, it's a VERY tough market--and it's not one that's ever proven to be particularly successful (if we're talking in terms of today's MMO numbers). DAoC is the anomaly; not the other way around.

And even DAoC's numbers aren't compelling to developers in today's market. Bulwyf and I have gone round-and-round on that topic before so I won't rehash it all here--but do the math and you'll get it. :)

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Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:10 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Nalthien wrote:
Star Wars won't.

GW2 might.

There seem to be a decent number of people clamoring for a PvP type game--but the question is: what does a PvP-based game in today's MMORPG landscape look like? We know what it looked like 10 years ago when DAoC was released--but what does that game look like today? And moreover, can that game really capture a big enough audience to make AAA-level investment in an MMO. The trouble is that a PVP-based game actually competes with two separate genres: action games (shooters, primarily) and other MMORPGs. One of the biggest arguments that people have had with PVP is that it's not "skill based"--it's on gear, not player skill. These people tend to gravitate back towards games that are purely oriented towards player combat. People on the other end of the spectrum, the true MMO players, complain that there's "nothing to do except PVP" at max level and they gravitate back towards games with other stuff to do.

In short, it's a VERY tough market--and it's not one that's ever proven to be particularly successful (if we're talking in terms of today's MMO numbers). DAoC is the anomaly; not the other way around.

And even DAoC's numbers aren't compelling to developers in today's market. Bulwyf and I have gone round-and-round on that topic before so I won't rehash it all here--but do the math and you'll get it. :)

Nailed that on the head. Its sad but true the market for a game like daoc won't make them the money they would want. :( Daoc did well but as nalty said it wasn't the only game that tried pvp. And none of them did very well. If they even released I think 1 or 2 bottomed up before they could even release stargate worlds was one I was soooo wanting to play that.

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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
I tend to agree with Nalthien and BB.

The reason we were so successful in DAOC was because of the nature of the game. The first time I heard of BBB was through other players, and I knew other players because it was impossible to solo in the game. The game forced people to be social. This was great for those of us that had the time to play, but forced away a significant percentage of the public.

I still remember how weird some of my friends thought it was that I played a game for 16 hours a day.

Modern mmo's are targeted at a much wider population base. It's great for development teams, but horrible for gamers. I seriously doubt that any game will ever really be similar to DAOC and be successful.

I also agree that raids suck. I want to do them once in a while for fun, not 3 times a week just to advance my character. Modern MMO's, much like wow, make it very easy to get to max lvl, but then require a huge time sink to get decent gear. I'd rather it take longer to lvl up and things not be so gear dependent.

I loved daoc right up until TOA, and then I think I honestly stopped enjoying it. Too many ML raids and artifacts just to be viable in RVR, and of course the mandatory buffbot.

I have high hopes for SWTOR, though i doubt it, or any other game, will bring BBB back together like we used to be. If they have an alliance system, we will we be okay, but if not, i think Nalty is correct, we are better off joining a larger guild as a group.


Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:40 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Sinjynn wrote:
So is it time for the new Narco to start SW banner designs for the page? :P


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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Auros wrote:

I have high hopes for SWTOR, though i doubt it, or any other game, will bring BBB back together like we used to be. If they have an alliance system, we will we be okay, but if not, i think Nalty is correct, we are better off joining a larger guild as a group.

Im pretty sure they have an alliance system on the SW:TOR forums people are already talking about making alliances. Also in this post --- http://forums.bbbguild.com/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=18177 Nordic rage wants to ally with us. :)

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Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:04 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Narco wrote:
Sinjynn wrote:
So is it time for the new Narco to start SW banner designs for the page? :P

Not bad :)

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Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:08 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Nice banner, Narco. ;)

Concerning SWTOR: Yeah, I think we'll definitely want an alliance or two. I am glad that the quantity of people required for raiding(operations) is a tad smaller in this game. What is it -- 16 I think? Raiding isn't really my thing, but I enjoy from time to time. I think the pvp might be a bit different; I just hope it's not all instanced or "Huttball" style. Warfront/Battleground style pvp is stale...if I want that, I'll go play Halo or something.

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Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:36 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
They have stated that they plan to have entire Planets that are PvP focused. And on these planets you are automatically flagged for PvP and there will be objectives to capture. If they do that then I think I will be a very happy camper.

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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Yeah it would be cool to roam around in a small group in a very open environment killing people...would remind me of a certain game I use to play back in the day...

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Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:45 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Throwing down money right now on several things in SWTOR:

1. Bulwyf will try it and hate it.
2. Fuiri will be the first to max-level; and likely the first to stop logging in when he gets bored of the game.
3. Blackbird and Airmoros will hang on as long as they can but ultimately be fed up with the game within a few months
4. PvP will be severely lacking compared to what they've discussed potentially having and people will be frustrated about that

People are excited because it's Bioware + Star Wars IP--but I haven't seen anything yet about this game that makes me believe it's going to be anything particularly special. I'm not saying it'll be a bad game; Rift wasn't a bad game--but everyone quit anyway.

For the foreseeable future, I'm skipping this one.

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Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:40 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
LOL, Nalty! The sad thing is that you're probably spot-on with those predictions. I don't really put much faith in the pvp being anything too new or entertaining despite what they may say. If it is, I'll just be happily surprised. This game is going to feature story/choices first. If you liked Mass Effect, Neverwinter Nights, KotOR, etc., then this game will be fun and worth the money for a few months of entertainment in your off-time. You probably spend more eating out once or twice a week than you would for the cost of the game plus the monthly fee, anyway. So what if we all get bored after a few months -- still had a good time while playing.

If you're not a fan of Bioware's rpg-style games, then the MMO side of this game is just going to be old hat to you. That's my take on this title.

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Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:54 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Blackbird wrote:
If you're not a fan of Bioware's rpg-style games, then the MMO side of this game is just going to be old hat to you. That's my take on this title.


That's a fair assessment. Frankly, I haven't really played much of Bioware's other games, so I can't say for sure how much I'd like the features you're talking about.

And I apply that logic to all MMOs these days; none since WoW has held my attention longer than a couple of months.

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Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:13 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Nalthien wrote:
Throwing down money right now on several things in SWTOR:

1. Bulwyf will try it and hate it.
2. Fuiri will be the first to max-level; and likely the first to stop logging in when he gets bored of the game.
3. Blackbird and Airmoros will hang on as long as they can but ultimately be fed up with the game within a few months
4. PvP will be severely lacking compared to what they've discussed potentially having and people will be frustrated about that

People are excited because it's Bioware + Star Wars IP--but I haven't seen anything yet about this game that makes me believe it's going to be anything particularly special. I'm not saying it'll be a bad game; Rift wasn't a bad game--but everyone quit anyway.

For the foreseeable future, I'm skipping this one.


5. Froston will be the best player in the game

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Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:28 pm
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Post Re: Are the glory days behind us?
Nalthien wrote:
Throwing down money right now on several things in SWTOR:

1. Bulwyf will try it and hate it.
2. Fuiri will be the first to max-level; and likely the first to stop logging in when he gets bored of the game.
3. Blackbird and Airmoros will hang on as long as they can but ultimately be fed up with the game within a few months
4. PvP will be severely lacking compared to what they've discussed potentially having and people will be frustrated about that

People are excited because it's Bioware + Star Wars IP--but I haven't seen anything yet about this game that makes me believe it's going to be anything particularly special. I'm not saying it'll be a bad game; Rift wasn't a bad game--but everyone quit anyway.

For the foreseeable future, I'm skipping this one.


Lol really? Wow. I guess being honest with criticisms about a game makes you a "hater" eh? :rolleyes:

I agree that from what I've seen gameplay wise it feels like WoW with KOTOR story elements. That's not bad but its not great. If they have enough open world rvr to justify it being called that then I may gave it a longer HD life than Rift.

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