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Class Balancing: It's our fault too! 
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Post Class Balancing: It's our fault too!
From reading everything over the past few months and watching what people have been saying about mythic and how they hit everyone with the nerf bat and then the buff bat at seemingly random times, what I've realized is that the times are not random at all...and most of the issues that exist in class balancing are as much our fault from our own expectations of what Mythic's descriptions mean (and RAs) than anything else.

I started playing DAoC about a week after it came out and I realized one very important thing that really made me latch onto this game when I'd lost interest in other MMORPGs: Mythic really seemed to LISTEN to their customers. They would hear our suggestions, Their reps (including Sanya) would frequent the popular VN boards and read what the users were saying, they encourage as much feedback on every issue of the game they can possibly get. Coming over from a game like Everquest which was run by the zombie-like presence of Verant, I was thrilled to finally be playing a game in a world run by a staff that really listened to the customers....

and we were making good suggestions!!!

So what happened? As the player-base grew, the overall "quality" of the average player decreased. This is not a slap to anyone who started playing the game later, all I'm saying is that when the game first came out, it was mostly the hard-core MMORPG crowd that was itching to try the latest dose of our chosen drug. As time wore on, casual gamers and those who had never played and MMORPG (and would find that they were perhaps not as good at them as they might have hoped) joined the fray and the general "quality" of the players decreased.

With the quality of players, the quality of our suggestions decreased also. But Mythic, being Mythic, kept on listening to player suggestions and ideas. And as time wore on, these suggestions became demands and Mythic continued to listen.

Players complained that midgard tanks were not strong enough to make them the kings of the melee world: so Left Axe was given love to a point that made Berzerkers almost completely unstoppable, and shadowblades were suddenly given abilities like was never intended and their class transformed into "shadowzerks."

Players complained that Hibernia had end regen and no other realm did, so Midgard & Albion were both given end regen which totally destroyed the Bard class' uniqueness and importance. Not only were the other realms given end regen, they were given end regen abilities SUPERIOR to the Hibernian abilities.

Those are just a couple of examples. The point though is that the demands were not created from within mythic, they did not look around and say: "hey, let's dillute the unique abilities of each realm by giving them all the same stuff that was originally supposed to separate the 3 realms." They looked at what players were demanding and gave people what they wanted. Invariably, when you go out of your way to please one group of people, there's another group that you just pissed off. It's that way all the time, not just in an online game.

I don't pretend to know even 1/2 of class balancing issues, but these are some things I *do* know:

1. Midgard tanks are superior to the rest of the realms, they do not need the best endurance regen in the game to be superior, they already are. Take your "nerf" on this one with your heads held high and realize that this isn't going to make you weak, it's going to even up the playing field a bit.

2. An archer should NOT be able to snipe an armored tank class in one shot.

3. A berzerker is a light tank, why should he be able to go toe to toe with a plate-wearing armsman and survive?

4. A shadowblade is a stealther, why should he be out dual wielding swords and charging into battle?

5. Blademasters & Mercenaries are the masters of the sword, should their parry rate not be higher to reflect that maybe, just MAYBE they trained themselves to defend themselves with their blades as well as attack?

6. Bards carrying an instrument are basically carrying a sign that says: kill me, cause then they lose endurance AND a healer.

7. If a valewalker is a magic-based tank, why does he get the hitpoints of a caster?

8. Lurikeens SHOULDN'T be able to be every class.

9. Realm Abilities killed all hope of every having balanced RvR. I pose an example: a group of people fairly new to RvR, say 2L6's head out. They have some experience at it. And they run into a group full of 6L6's. They are immediately outmatched, even if they are superior skilled players who know their characters better, and every person in both groups is level 50, the group of 6L6's will defeat them because of their RA's. But if they're all lvl 50, they should be on fairly even footing. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

10. Archers were insanely overpowered at the outset of the game: deal with it. No one should be able to kill you from 1500 feet away and never be seen. Do they need work now: yes.

11. Animists are quite simply one of the most original class ideas I've ever seen. Give them some real skill to RvR, and you've got one of the coolest things I've ever seen going with an animist.

12. Albion DOES look better than the other two realms but I don't see this one ever changing....deal with it: your realm isn't ugly, I've seen them all and they are all pretty cool. So Albion looks a little better, so what? Can you get done what you need to get done? Do you still have a visually pleasing game? C'mon....let's worry about real issues not aesthetic differences between the realms.

13. Wardens have to choose between running PBT and DMG add. Other classes in other realms should have to choose what to run as well...so stop bitching

14. Why does mythic feel that in order to make a mob "more uber" it needs to make the mob almost 100% resistant to magic? Talk about a boring time for casters. "Man, I wish I could hit Balor"

15. Why are enchanters "enchantment" and mentalists "mentalism" lines so worthless/ Don't they seem like they should be the lines that define the class, not the ones everyone laughs at.


And that's just some things I can think of off the top of my head. But I can look at almost every single one of those things I just listed and talk about why we, not mythic created that situation.

Stop getting so pissed at mythic, and lets start coming up with GOOD suggetsions to make to actually improve the game as a whole, not just make your class more uber. I mean c'mon...you know mythic's gonna listen.

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Fri May 02, 2003 11:05 am
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werd is all I got to say... werd

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8. Lurikeens SHOULDN'T be able to be every class.


Double dose of werd...


Also, on the same note I would like to add that when I first started this game I played a ranger... now I could remember asking noobishly in gu... "anyone wanna grp, all my friends are offline" ... I think it was you nalty on Kaellan or whatever the name was spelled... "Did you know that rangers are like the 2nd if not 3rd best soloing class in game?" Yeah back then rangers were cool. Things change though, people complain and rightfully so... rangers were too overpowered.


That can I hit balor thing was funny too... I always remembered even at lvl 50 going on a legendaries raid and being able to hit maybe 2 of the mobs consistently. Blight, the dragon thing, Juggy, Skheag. I mean you are so right dude... it isn't even funny how much magic resistance higher lvl mobs have. I couldn't remember a more boring time. What was worse tho is Grstaka inviting people to come thru a secondary person on our AS on a legendaries raid and I msged him being a long time bud and all he is like bro I would but you wont be able to hit anything.


Yeah so needless to say Nalty has a lot of valid points, but I seriously didn't ask for anything. In all honesty when I got into this game it was still fairly new and it was fun because of that!!!!! Now like nalty said more and more people play and you get less and less fun... it's a fact of the matter. I do like however mythic trying to get people to switch to other servers. If I start another alt it is going to be on another server in albion... you know.


I suppose that bolt casters deserved the nerf bat because I could remember hitting tanks for 800+ without crit... which I mean with the hitpoint difference shouldn't matter, but you know what I mean... bolt casters they saw as going to where archers were and well that wasnt going to happen again. But seriously I think this could have all been avoided if they woulda made the classes so much more unique and didn't fuck with shit. There is a line you have to draw when it comes to listening to what the customer wants, and giving away the farm to please every single person. I firmly believe mythic has crossed that line by alot... I do commend them tho for listening to their customers as they have such done.


On a final note, RA's have been the subject of it's own demise... I don't know but I totally agree with Nalty on this... RA's make RvR completely unbalanced and unfun(new word). I mean seriously whats more disheartening to a new lvl 50 going out hoping for some small time battles. Going up against like Nalty said a RR6 grp and getting pwned then having to join 2 other groups just to kill that one group... I mean it seriously wears people being lvl 50 out.... thus it makes them create alts and if they hate the alts along the way because they know it will be just the same when their alts hit lvl 50 then whats the point of the game... ??? they go off then and play shadowbane or some shit.


RA's just present a whole big can of worms and I think for the sake of everything make something more enjoyable to spend RP's on... like say a badass unique weapon or free points to your skill for crafting or maybe when stable mastering comes out get a faster better horse or something I dont know just make it so that RPs aren't worth skills that will make the game unbalanced, less fun, and ultimatley nerfing not only to the realm but to each person's character.


That's all I have...

Thanks Nalty for opening my eyes a bit! :)


Fri May 02, 2003 11:22 am
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Heh, yeah, let's whine more so Mythic gives us stuff like the do Mids and Albs... who whine nonstop


Fri May 02, 2003 11:26 am
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It goes against my code to whine in public... btw the boards here dont count as public =) More often or not this is one of the coolest, if not the best place to vent your frustration for whatever reason because so many other people feel what u feel and if not now they have gone thru it before so hey... you know I am hear to listen to people's whining and comment and it's cool that the boards are so open to that.

I do preffer to substitute the word whining with venting... it just sounds so much less like ur a little bitch or something =)


Fri May 02, 2003 11:31 am
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Ardentfrost wrote:
Heh, yeah, let's whine more so Mythic gives us stuff like the do Mids and Albs... who whine nonstop


Nonono...the point is that people need to STOP whining and start thinking about the implications of the things they ask for. Instead of just saying 'Berzerkers aren't strong enough, make them more uber" people should have thought about the berzerker class and what it was designed to do and perhaps suggested some adjustments...Doubling their damage output and then adding unlimited endurance created the huge mess we have on our hands now....and it resulted from players whining instead of making clear suggestions.

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Fri May 02, 2003 11:32 am
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That's not what people care about. They don't care about how their class fits in with the scheme of things. They just want whatever class they play to be the MOST uber. And since albs and mids whine the most on the VNs, over the past year and a half, and especially over the past 8 months, they have gotten the MOST love (better end regen, better power regen, better tanks, etc). I seriously don't think mythic listens to one person saying "Ooo, I think a Beserker should be able to zerk every 30 minutes to make him more on par with a hero. I play a zerk, and I think this would make the class more fair." No. What they see is a billion people complaining about not having end regen or complaining about bard insta-mez or hib stun or whatever, and they give them ways to fight it. That one person's request was just tossed to the back b/c that's one person out of 100k that play this game


Fri May 02, 2003 11:36 am
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Ardent is kind of right... too many self indulgent people out there. I mean ard you remember when we could hit people in one hit and it was the coolest thing since bread and butter?? I could always remember lodi disagreeing with me saying it wasnt true, then when I posted SS's he was like well elds need to be nerfed and they were. But, in the midst of all of that I was thinking about how I could be more uber or anything I was just thinking about how much it was gonna suck when the nerf bat hit... now I want more balance.

So maybe that's mythics way of saying hey first we are gonna make ur class suck so u know how it feels, then maybe you will come at us with some legitimate suggestions noob. lol :twisted:


Fri May 02, 2003 11:44 am
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"Be careful what you wish for... You just might get it"

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Fri May 02, 2003 12:19 pm
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I didn't wish for shit lol... tho it is going to be nice to see bms get some loving that way my elf bm will be cool when I go to lvl him =D


Fri May 02, 2003 12:23 pm
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Nice posting and good insight.

I think I will copy Mythic on this :?


Fri May 02, 2003 12:41 pm
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Bullshit... lurikeens should be able to roll whatever class they want, regardless of realm. If I want a lurikeen polearmsman, or a lurikeen savage, dammit.. I should be able to roll one. Lurikeen are one of the few things that have kept me playing this game... kobolds being a close second. (You'll find that most of my characters are either human, or luri/kobold.)

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Fri May 02, 2003 12:57 pm
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Vyrzain wrote:
Nice posting and good insight.

I think I will copy Mythic on this :?


Thanks, and be my guest. Post a link to the article on the VN boards if you'd like.

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Fri May 02, 2003 1:16 pm
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He who has the loudest voice gets herd.

Any of you old school players remember Phsyco the luri NS? That dude spamed every thing non stop and never shut up with what everyone should be doing, he would try to lead when others were leading and he was 99% of the time wrong or just plain stupid. Amazing thing is that since he was always giving commands non-stop people would follow him over the leaders cause well they herd him.

So it does not matter how smart you are or how dumb you are, people will listen if you make the loudest sound, Why? cause thats alll they can hear, the rest is drown out. Which is like ardent said why mids/albs have had so much love from mythic they are the ones being so damn vocal. Hibs for the exception of "Mindblade" sat back and just tryed to play to the best of there ability with out whinning.

The big hib sit in that was going on, mythic said big woop that does not change anything. But really just the fact they hibs were doing that I think made a difference. I think it made mythic realise thats hibs do care and are tired of being pissed on and whiy they are going to try to throw us some bones to keep our mouths shut.

/shrug Whats does it mean? It means the cry babies are going to get what they want. Where the independent players will just have to play harder and better.

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Fri May 02, 2003 1:22 pm
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I agree with most of what is said except um..this...

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10. Archers were insanely overpowered at the outset of the game: deal with it. No one should be able to kill you from 1500 feet away and never be seen. Do they need work now: yes.


Yeah I do remember when archers were way too uber for the first few months into the game, everytime I turned around I was getting one shotted by a fucking archer. But I think mythic went a little too far in nerfing archers, not saying it's all their fault, a lot of our whines and complaints made them really hit archers hard. Maybe after this patch they will be at least a little more playable.

In the short amount of time of playing nerfs after I was blessed with barren's account, it didn't take me long to realize why barren didn't like playing archers...

Run all the way out to emain.

Weave through the zerg of SB's and Infs, wait ..wait..wait...then maybe finally find a solo target (that's not a tank of course).

Take out bow, crit shot(miss) regular shot (miss) hit for about 120 (-498) regular shot (interupted) then die a horrible death.

Repeat as desired.
----------
There are 2 huge nerfs that came into play in daoc that made the game less fun for a lot of people, and a lot of people don't even realize they were nerfs.

First one was RA's, it killed the casual gamer's chance to have fun and be able to rvr once in awhile and have a fighting chance against someone who plays 24/7. Also with things like purge, IP, and a few other RA's made most classes with range and zero defense up close a lot less enjoyable to play.

Second one was Spellcrafting, my damage was reduced by about 60% -70% (I used to do 140-150 avg per tick, now I'm seeing lots of 40's - 60's)on most people with SC gear which is nearly everyone these days.

This has changed a lot of things, before, when I dotted people they would fall back because of loseing health, now they just ignore it and attempt to one shot me with their weapon.


If I was to make a list of what I really want out of the game, it would be this...

1 ) Stop nerfing ranged classes, repeatedly this has happened. I know it's not easy, but damn it I used to look forward to patch notes, now I dread them.

2 ) Make a new frontier zone, towns that can be taken, lots of flat landscapes with a few hills here and their. Take the heat off of hibs for constantly defending against bored enemy's in emain.

3 ) Flatten albion's frontier and take out some of those aggro.

4 ) Keeps/ RK's need to have a outer wall circling the keep, (think two towers) make them so we have to use catapults/ballista's/add cannons or something to break them down, that would give siege equipment more usefulness. Assasins and minstrels would not be able to climb this wall, so maybe ranged people could once again enjoy keep defending. This would help in slowing down the "ninja" keep/relic takes.

Also give substantial realm points to people who take keeps, people who actually help their realm deserve to be able to get rewarded rather then just the people who camp a mg and make their uber leet groups get the rp.

5 ) Give a xp bonus or relic like damage increase to lower populated realms to make them more attractive to play in.

6 ) BP should be able to be turned in for plat, make it so people will come out and rvr rather then farming all the time.

7 ) Doors should be A LOT cheaper to repair (mainly keep doors, RK doors I'm not sure about, it's a good tactic to knock them down to drain a realms money bank). Level 10 doors should cost say 150 gold. Being able to pick up a ram for 30g at a supply to knock down a 2 plat worth of a door is stupid.

Ok, that's my wishlist :)


Fri May 02, 2003 1:26 pm
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Quote:
There are 2 huge nerfs that came into play in daoc that made the game less fun for a lot of people, and a lot of people don't even realize they were nerfs.

First one was RA's, it killed the casual gamer's chance to have fun and be able to rvr once in awhile and have a fighting chance against someone who plays 24/7. Also with things like purge, IP, and a few other RA's made most classes with range and zero defense up close a lot less enjoyable to play.

Second one was Spellcrafting, my damage was reduced by about 60% -70% (I used to do 140-150 avg per tick, now I'm seeing lots of 40's - 60's)on most people with SC gear which is nearly everyone these days.

This has changed a lot of things, before, when I dotted people they would fall back because of loseing health, now they just ignore it and attempt to one shot me with their weapon.


If I was to make a list of what I really want out of the game, it would be this...

1 ) Stop nerfing ranged classes, repeatedly this has happened. I know it's not easy, but damn it I used to look forward to patch notes, now I dread them.



i could not possibly agree anymore, when they mentioned sc'n and ra's i hated them RIGHT from the getgo, an sad to say im forced to get them in order to compete against others

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Fri May 02, 2003 1:34 pm
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RA's ruined the game. They should have made other incentives to RVR, basicaly they just increased the level cap.


Fri May 02, 2003 1:41 pm
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Mentality wrote:
Also give substantial realm points to people who take keeps, people who actually help their realm deserve to be able to get rewarded rather then just the people who camp a mg and make their uber leet groups get the rp.

6 ) BP should be able to be turned in for plat, make it so people will come out and rvr rather then farming all the time.


I agree the most with these two statements. I've been thinking of BPs a little lately, and the "turn them in for cash" idea came to me a few days ago and I thought it was a really good idea. That would REALLY get people out RvRing, but then you'd still need some way to counter balance the zerging (b/c if everyone came out instead of stayed in, zerging would be far worse)

The RPs for keep taking is a DAMN good idea. I always end up taking keeps when I RvR which doesn't get me many RPs. The only inscentive, really, for taking keeps is for DF, which is retarded. If, for instance, they did it like BGs where after 45 minutes the keep can be taken for a reward, that reward being RPs, keeps would change hands a lot more often.


Fri May 02, 2003 1:45 pm
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What they can do to balance the rps gained for taking keeps and not turn it into a a keep changes hand 100 times fest is simple.

Players that are within a certain raidius of the lord (aka like the bgs) get 100 rps per level of the keep when taking back keeps in the homland of that character.

so the max rps you can get from taking a keep would be 1000 rps which is not that high, and you only get it when you are taking keep back in your own front. This would encrougage defending your front and you would see a lot of zergs run out of emain to take a keep for those rps.

Actaully the more I think about it the better it seems.

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Fri May 02, 2003 1:52 pm
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personally I think the bp for cash thing is cool, but like ardent said u would need to counter balance it with something to keep the zerg away...

I think the best thing they are doing for archers is decreasing the range of SH which is great. That should shut archers up, also they are looking into the bow missing and stuff and fumbling... another plus. Archers are getting what they need. Not necessarily what they want but what they need.

I think like I said before the greatest thing for Rp's is to make them worth something else besides skills... I would like to see what I said posted happen... weapons, armor, crafting points...


Fri May 02, 2003 1:58 pm
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I agree except for me it was always play the best, be the best...and I didn't have to complain or whine or anything about my class--mainly cause my spearo was uber...

But anyhow...yeah RAs destroyed it and even worse with the Spellcrafted is not only did it make it so that EVERYTHING is capped-- (capping is stupid IMO anyways)....but the fact is NO ONE wants to do raids since you already have perfect gear.

Some classes need their bases fix...ie merc/BM dmg, chantment line, ment line, animist in general...lol Ive realized from playin hibs mids and albs that albs and mids have it nicely...their chars are great no matter how much they complain--and hibs have been the ones who have to use skill to win....

hope maybe mythic can lvl the playing field, make rvr fun, and have a reason for people to keep playing because now it is the same old same old where people run around and try to find a zerf to die to.


Fri May 02, 2003 3:21 pm
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If they added RPs to keep taking, people would go take keeps in other frontiers JUST to defend, which would also be cool. A lot of the time ppl take a keep, get DF, and abandon. But with a REASON to take back your own keeps, defending a keep wouldn't be as boring (b/c they'd be quicker to go take it back)


Fri May 02, 2003 4:07 pm
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I agree I think you would see alot more fun keep battles with getting rps for taking keep back in your own front.

Getting some one semi-bored in DF to come out for a free 0.1-1.0k rps would be easy enough. I can really see it as a way to get some folks to take back keeps or go take keeps in other fronts knowing that they will have inc to get it back.

Seems like a win win thing to me

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Fri May 02, 2003 4:57 pm
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Man. didn't know everyone disliked RAs so much. I don't mind them much. Never have really. Of course, I never played a 50 lvl toon with out them either. I would hate to see them go away all together.

If they're too tough, ok, fine, let's reduce them a bit or get rid of the more devastating ones. I think they make a nice incentive to rvr. ppl who rvr 24/7 deserve to be a little tougher IMO. Casual gamers will never be able to compete against experienced veterans with or with out RA's, anyway. So I say let the RAs live.

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Fri May 02, 2003 5:03 pm
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Ra's are yeah, overpowered in a way, but some classes honestly depend on them. Nightshades being a perfect example, without them, there gimped to hell. Spellcrafting = the dumbest thing ever put into the game imo. You used to have to make decisions on what resists/stats/ect. you wanted to cap. Daoc has changed from being a game that was all about the character, to a game that is all about the equipment and what ra's you have.


Fri May 02, 2003 6:21 pm
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DAoC was originally intended that "NO 2 people would have the same specialization" ...Unfortunately most people who dont spec like everyone else are gimped to hell.

Spellcraftin is still a very stupid idea as no one wants to do raids...and everyone has the same # of hitpoints/str/con etc as their brother.


Fri May 02, 2003 9:57 pm
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Yeah, exactly vaba, there's just cookie cutter characters now.


Fri May 02, 2003 11:18 pm
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Quote:
Casual gamers will never be able to compete against experienced veterans with or with out RA's, anyway. So I say let the RAs live.



That is a very untrue statment IMO. Two level 50's square off. One is a casual gamer and the other is a 18 year old speed freak that lives in his mother's basement. Do you think skill helps the speed freak??? No, it is the RR10 he has because he has no job and can play the game 24/7. Make a game that has a purpose other than a endless level/loot treadmill, that is the real challenge here.

Oh man, I like the new banner with the moon, that is sweet.


Fri May 02, 2003 11:45 pm
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well in reality...the only way you are skilled is if you manage to pull out positional styles...mind you I used to do that---but it doesnt matter

A 1VS1 will never completely be about technique/skill it will be about (should be about better equip) but its who has the cash to buy SC gear and who knows how to slightly rvr to get in the good groups...thats all


Fri May 02, 2003 11:53 pm
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I agree with Gala... just because of the fact like it has been pointed out the RA's help more so the people that have a higher RR than it does the people with a lower RR... for obvious reasons.

Do away with RA's and make them worth something more obsolete to RvR and you have a balanced playing field.


Sat May 03, 2003 1:58 pm
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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I just find it funny that the most responses came from Void Elds.... lets ponder that, shall we?

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Annathemas - Asmodian Templar
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World of Warcraft
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Dark Age of Camelot
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Sat May 03, 2003 6:51 pm
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